Wheels again today (and so on).
A customer dropped off a Reserve MTB wheel front rim
built with the 30|HD.
About the model name "30|HD"—
with road wheels, the number means rim depth,
but with MTB wheels it refers to the rim's internal width,
and comes in 28, 30, or 31.
The vertical line followed by XC, HD, or DH indicates
the intended use case as defined by the manufacturer.
HD stands for enduro.
Reserve started as a venture within Santa Cruz,
an MTB frame and complete bike brand,
and actually has a richer road wheel lineup
than MTB wheels. But since Santa Cruz and Cervélo
share the same parent company and you often see
Reserve on Cervélo bikes, people might think
Reserve is Cervélo's wheel brand.
The MTB wheels have a large red Santa Cruz sticker
on the outer surface—something you don't see on road wheels.
DT 350 BOOST hub, 28H
All-black Competition Race spokes, 64-cross reverse Italian lacing.
The spoke head stamp reads DT, and at first I thought
these were Revolution spokes (2.0–1.5–2.0mm),
but DT discontinued Revolution.
There was a possibility these were custom spokes
made in-house at the factory,
but after looking more carefully,
they turned out to be Competition Race (2.0–1.6–2.0mm).
However, Competition Race spokes are hard to source.
You can only really get certain lengths
as replacement stock for Roval,
and Japanese distributors don't keep them in inventory.
So this wheel isn't something a shop here bought as a bare rim
and built—it's a factory-built complete wheelset.
The tension is spot-on centered, and for this spoke type,
they're really well tensioned. If someone told me to build it
the same way with these spokes, I'd end up with similar results.
When you grip the final crossing, it makes a scratching sound,
but this isn't because the spoke tension is slack.
It's because round spokes contact each other at a point
rather than over a surface, and the resistance from
DT's black spoke coating plays a role. If these were silver spokes,
I don't think it would make noise—so the coating is probably
the bigger factor here.
So I rebuilt it.
28H black half CX Sprint
64-cross reverse Italian lacing.
As for tying… eh, either way works,
but I'll probably do it.
At this point, gripping the final crossing on both sides
produces no noise. That's because flat spokes contact
over a surface, and Sapim's matte black coating
doesn't generate noise as easily as DT's glossy finish.
When I disassembled the original wheel,
I loosened all the spokes rather than cutting them,
and the right flange side has the same rim and hub as before
with the same 6-cross lacing, so if the original spoke length
was correct, I should be able to use the same length
CX-RAY spokes.
But to be safe, I calculated from the rim inner diameter
and hub dimensions. After rounding, I got 3mm longer
than the original—my calculated length came out longer.
Since the decimal before rounding was close to 0.5mm,
in cases like this you should go with 2.5mm plus
rather than 3mm, but even so it's quite different.
For the rebuild, I switched the nipples to
DT's standard black aluminum 12mm ones.
The original nipples had a 3.2mm hex wrench flats
on the outer side.
Standard nipples are typically 12mm long,
and long nipples are 16mm. But during the period
when Sapim sold spokes with included nipples,
they came with 14mm nipples. The threaded section starts
at essentially the same position on the outer end face
of 12, 14, and 16mm nipples—with only minor variations.
It has to be that way. How you define the "proper" spoke length
varies by person—whether it's measured to the nipple's outer end face
or to where it just reaches the nipple's slot
(I use the former)—but if that changed with nipple length,
you'd need correction factors in your formula.
The idea that "12mm nipples mean short spokes, so swap to 16mm
and you can fudge 4mm" doesn't work that way.
You do see wheels built with overly short spokes and 14mm nipples
where, if you switched to 12mm, the threads would protrude
from the inner side of the nipple. So nipple length differences
can mask spoke length issues—that effect is real.
↑Top image: a DT 12mm nipple.
Bottom image: the original nipple from this wheel.
Total length is 18mm, but the effective length
excluding the wrench flats section is about 14.5mm.
In the top image, I've aligned them by the position
corresponding to the standard nipple's outer end face.
Now I'll insert raw silver CX-RAY spokes
into each, right up to where the nipple threads begin.
What I mentioned earlier—that 12, 14, and 16mm
standard nipples yield essentially the same calculated spoke length—
is another way of saying that when you insert a spoke
up to the nipple's thread start, the spoke's thread start position
ends up in roughly the same place.
But this actually showed quite a difference.
The original nipple leaves no margin in the spoke threads—
it's short, and that's correct. So if I'm using standard nipples,
I need a correction value for this nipple type.
This means the original spoke length on the right flange side
was in the proper range for use with that original nipple.
Below are images after the rebuild.
Starting from next to the valve hole:
CX Sprint 4-cross (left side)
CX-RAY 6-cross (right side)
CX Sprint 4-cross (left side)
CX-RAY 6-cross (right side)
The spokes protrude just slightly beyond the nipple face—
not outside acceptable range, but noticeably there.
The difference from the original spoke length isn't 3mm,
but 2.5mm.
That's because when rebuilding with asymmetrical hub flanges
and different spoke counts on each side, the nipple winding
will be greater than before, so I had a gut feeling
that 3mm would be too much.
A customer dropped off a Reserve MTB wheel front rim
built with the 30|HD.
About the model name "30|HD"—
with road wheels, the number means rim depth,
but with MTB wheels it refers to the rim's internal width,
and comes in 28, 30, or 31.
The vertical line followed by XC, HD, or DH indicates
the intended use case as defined by the manufacturer.
HD stands for enduro.
Reserve started as a venture within Santa Cruz,
an MTB frame and complete bike brand,
and actually has a richer road wheel lineup
than MTB wheels. But since Santa Cruz and Cervélo
share the same parent company and you often see
Reserve on Cervélo bikes, people might think
Reserve is Cervélo's wheel brand.
The MTB wheels have a large red Santa Cruz sticker
on the outer surface—something you don't see on road wheels.
DT 350 BOOST hub, 28H
All-black Competition Race spokes, 64-cross reverse Italian lacing.
The spoke head stamp reads DT, and at first I thought
these were Revolution spokes (2.0–1.5–2.0mm),
but DT discontinued Revolution.
There was a possibility these were custom spokes
made in-house at the factory,
but after looking more carefully,
they turned out to be Competition Race (2.0–1.6–2.0mm).
However, Competition Race spokes are hard to source.
You can only really get certain lengths
as replacement stock for Roval,
and Japanese distributors don't keep them in inventory.
So this wheel isn't something a shop here bought as a bare rim
and built—it's a factory-built complete wheelset.
The tension is spot-on centered, and for this spoke type,
they're really well tensioned. If someone told me to build it
the same way with these spokes, I'd end up with similar results.
When you grip the final crossing, it makes a scratching sound,
but this isn't because the spoke tension is slack.
It's because round spokes contact each other at a point
rather than over a surface, and the resistance from
DT's black spoke coating plays a role. If these were silver spokes,
I don't think it would make noise—so the coating is probably
the bigger factor here.
So I rebuilt it.
28H black half CX Sprint
64-cross reverse Italian lacing.
As for tying… eh, either way works,
but I'll probably do it.
At this point, gripping the final crossing on both sides
produces no noise. That's because flat spokes contact
over a surface, and Sapim's matte black coating
doesn't generate noise as easily as DT's glossy finish.
When I disassembled the original wheel,
I loosened all the spokes rather than cutting them,
and the right flange side has the same rim and hub as before
with the same 6-cross lacing, so if the original spoke length
was correct, I should be able to use the same length
CX-RAY spokes.
But to be safe, I calculated from the rim inner diameter
and hub dimensions. After rounding, I got 3mm longer
than the original—my calculated length came out longer.
Since the decimal before rounding was close to 0.5mm,
in cases like this you should go with 2.5mm plus
rather than 3mm, but even so it's quite different.
For the rebuild, I switched the nipples to
DT's standard black aluminum 12mm ones.
The original nipples had a 3.2mm hex wrench flats
on the outer side.
Standard nipples are typically 12mm long,
and long nipples are 16mm. But during the period
when Sapim sold spokes with included nipples,
they came with 14mm nipples. The threaded section starts
at essentially the same position on the outer end face
of 12, 14, and 16mm nipples—with only minor variations.
It has to be that way. How you define the "proper" spoke length
varies by person—whether it's measured to the nipple's outer end face
or to where it just reaches the nipple's slot
(I use the former)—but if that changed with nipple length,
you'd need correction factors in your formula.
The idea that "12mm nipples mean short spokes, so swap to 16mm
and you can fudge 4mm" doesn't work that way.
You do see wheels built with overly short spokes and 14mm nipples
where, if you switched to 12mm, the threads would protrude
from the inner side of the nipple. So nipple length differences
can mask spoke length issues—that effect is real.
↑Top image: a DT 12mm nipple.
Bottom image: the original nipple from this wheel.
Total length is 18mm, but the effective length
excluding the wrench flats section is about 14.5mm.
In the top image, I've aligned them by the position
corresponding to the standard nipple's outer end face.
Now I'll insert raw silver CX-RAY spokes
into each, right up to where the nipple threads begin.
What I mentioned earlier—that 12, 14, and 16mm
standard nipples yield essentially the same calculated spoke length—
is another way of saying that when you insert a spoke
up to the nipple's thread start, the spoke's thread start position
ends up in roughly the same place.
But this actually showed quite a difference.
The original nipple leaves no margin in the spoke threads—
it's short, and that's correct. So if I'm using standard nipples,
I need a correction value for this nipple type.
This means the original spoke length on the right flange side
was in the proper range for use with that original nipple.
Below are images after the rebuild.
Starting from next to the valve hole:
CX Sprint 4-cross (left side)
CX-RAY 6-cross (right side)
CX Sprint 4-cross (left side)
CX-RAY 6-cross (right side)
The spokes protrude just slightly beyond the nipple face—
not outside acceptable range, but noticeably there.
The difference from the original spoke length isn't 3mm,
but 2.5mm.
That's because when rebuilding with asymmetrical hub flanges
and different spoke counts on each side, the nipple winding
will be greater than before, so I had a gut feeling
that 3mm would be too much.